Video Description

Is Donald Trump eroding American democracy and consolidating power for himself? Or is he trying to do that and failing? Is this what sliding toward authoritarianism looks like? Or is this what a functioning democracy looks like? And how can you tell the difference? Two articles came out recently that offer very different perspectives on these questions. In Vox, Zack Beauchamp wrote a piece called “Trump Is Losing,” which argues that Trump’s efforts to cow his enemies and consolidate power are not organized or strategic enough to make a serious dent in our democratic system. In The New Yorker, Andrew Marantz published a piece that he reported in Hungary, about how life in a modern authoritarian regime doesn’t look and feel like you might expect: “You can live through the big one, it turns out, and still go on acting as if — still go on feeling as if — the big one is not yet here,” he writes. So I invited both Beauchamp and Marantz on the show to debate these big questions: What timeline are we on? What signs are they looking at? If we’ve crossed the line into authoritarianism, how would we know? Is Trump losing? Or is it possible he’s already won? 0:00 Introduction 2:50 Markers of failure? 9:45 The Hungary comparison 14:53 Is the opposition breaking or cohering? 18:51 Weaponized antisemitism 22:27 Trump’s contradictory strategies 29:47 Is democracy dead? 38:34 Perception matters 42:17 A new political order? 1:02:13 Lessons for liberalism 1:09:39 Book recommendations Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-marantz-beauchamp.html Watch more on @EzraKleinShow Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html Thumbnail photo credit: Brendan Smialowski/AFP via Getty Images