The Very American Roots of Trumpism | The Ezra Klein Show

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After last week’s episode, “The Emergency Is Here,” we got a lot of emails. And the most common reply was: You really think we’ll have midterm elections in 2026? Isn’t that naïve? I think we will have midterms. But one reason I think so many people are skeptical of that is they’re working with comparisons to other places: Mussolini’s Italy, Putin’s Russia, Pinochet’s Chile. But we don’t need to look abroad for parallels; it has happened here. Steven Hahn is a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian at New York University and the author of “Illiberal America.” In this conversation, he walks me through some of the most illiberal periods in American history: Andrew Jackson’s Indian Removal Act of 1830, Jim Crow, the Red Scare, Japanese American internment, Operation Wetback. And we discuss how this legacy can help us better understand what’s happening right now. This episode contains strong language. 00:00 - Intro 1:50 - The foundations of American illiberalism 7:30 - Andrew Jackson’s illiberal tradition 14:40 - The Palmer Raids and the Red Scare 16:20 - Fascism abroad and at home 22:35 - The Johnson-Reed Act 24:38 - McCarthy’s Trumpist rhetoric 32:17 - Why liberals embrace illiberalism 37:50 - Operation Wetback 42:00 - Why Obama leads to Trump 44:58 – Mass incarceration 48:00 - Why this keeps happening 53:42 - You’re always going to be protesting this s*** 57:12 - What would a renewed liberalism look like? 1:04:00 - A pure liberal movement can’t win Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/23/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-steven-hahn.html Watch more on @EzraKleinShow Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.